Mearls ([info]mearls) wrote,
@ 2008-07-09 13:58:00
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Solo Monsters and the Risk of Boredom
Cross-posted from my WotC forum:

I think of everything in the game, solos have the most potential for a frustrating fight. It's important that a solo fight take place in an environment that encourages movement and interesting choices. Otherwise, you end up with the party standing around, trading blows with one monster. Ideally, solos are designed themselves to encourage movement, but that isn't always possible or plausible.

For example, let's take the dragon fight I designed for the Kobold Hall adventure. Were I to do it again, I'd add the following to make the fight more interesting:

* An icy ledge around the edge of the chamber that a character can climb up to snipe at the dragon, but the dragon can smash the ice and send the PC tumbling to the floor if he doesn't keep moving.

* Pillars of ice that provide cover, but that can be destroyed with attacks to cause minor cave-ins.

* Pools of water that flash freeze when the dragon breathes on them, trapping PCs for a round. However, the dragon tends to stand so that the pools are the best places for flanks, and the dragon can also be forzen in place with cold attacks.

* A visible treasure on the opposite side of the room, partially frozen in the ice, that includes a weapon or implement that would be useful against the dragon.

* A thick snow drift that a PC can dive into, hide within, and then spring out of to attack the dragon.

* Icicles hanging from the ceiling that a character can knock down to impale the dragon.

I think that when you have a solo fight, you should look for terrain and other features that:

1. Encourages movement.

2. Rewards risk taking (standing here might be a bad idea, but it gives a real advantage for at least a short time).

3. Gives benefits for doing something other than attacking (spend a round to get that nifty +2 sword).

4. Gives the characters "virtual powers", set pieces that you can use to attack so that the characters aren't just grinding through the same sequence. You can also create these to do some damage on a miss, to doubly reward PCs (they had a good idea, and even on a miss that pays off).

5. Find uses for powers that the solo might shut down, like the freezing water example above. Your ray of frost might not hurt the dragon, but you can still freeze it in place.

In many ways, think of your terrain as filling all the gaps, and roadblocking any potential lame-ness, that might come up in play.



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[info]dirkcjelli
2008-07-09 09:03 pm UTC (link)
Is the solution to produce a splat book of 'arenas,' along the lines of a monster manual N+1?

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[info]mearls
2008-07-09 10:49 pm UTC (link)
I think examples, and acknowledging set dressing as something that can be as important as a compelling plot and NPCs, is the best way to go. I think specific examples are nice for plug and play, but the more useful path is to build up methods, share them, and build mastery.

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[info]jagdell
2008-07-09 09:11 pm UTC (link)
How about a Book of Challenges (Both Skills and Combat) where pre-made venues are presented for all tiers, just add monsters, stir and serve?

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[info]ninjadebugger
2008-07-09 09:23 pm UTC (link)
I think this is probably better done in Insider, since there are already two good places to put things like this. Vicious Venues and Maps of Mystery would both work as places to put things like this, without trying to fit another book into the schedule.

Not that a 3pp couldn't do it, and do it well, but I'd rather see a book teaching people how to build a good venue than a book of venues, whether the latter would make more money or not.

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[info]jagdell
2008-07-09 09:27 pm UTC (link)
What I liked about the D&D 3.0 book of Challenegs was all the Meta stuff you could find on building your own challenges. I think you could have both venues and tips to adapt/create your own.

Heck if I had better creds, I'd do a pitch to write one.

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[info]mearls
2008-07-09 10:55 pm UTC (link)
At least pitch a Dragon article! We need writers!

(Actually, it's much easier to start with 2,000 word articles, then work your way up. We have too many people who want to begin with a 200+ page hardcover of their campaign, when the best route is to start small, learn the craft, and work your way up.)

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[info]jagdell
2008-07-09 11:02 pm UTC (link)
I need to survive Gen Con (I have my part of the workshop booklet to finish up)

Then I'll definitively pitch for a 2000 worder in Dungeons or Dragons.

Agreed on starting smaller.

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[info]zakarntson
2008-07-09 11:55 pm UTC (link)
Dungeon would be a great venue for single-encounter entries with tons of flavor, like your enhanced white dragon brawl.

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[info]dacuteturtle
2008-07-10 12:41 pm UTC (link)
When the new rules are up, that's my plan!

With a 16 mo. old occupying me (live-action SIMS), I'm too unreliable for freelance work. Can't hit those deadlines. Article pitches? Yeah, I can do those by the score.

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[info]brahman_atman
2008-07-09 09:28 pm UTC (link)
Shouldn't you be saving "zones" for the DMG 2? ;)

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[info]mearls
2008-07-09 10:54 pm UTC (link)
Zones are like Jell-O. There's always room for more, and it's never too early to have some.

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[info]boymonster
2008-07-10 05:47 pm UTC (link)
And some make you go night-night if you enjoy them too much!

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[info]thetomeshow
2008-07-09 09:41 pm UTC (link)
It seems to me that giving me another book full of interesting places to have encounters is less useful than a book with advice and examples to do as such (like the DMG).

But more than that, I think this is just evidence that: a) perhaps more (outsider) playtests on non-core books (like adventures) would help smooth out some of these bumps so we don't get more of "If I were to do this again here's how it would be better" (I'm not trying to be overly critical, I applaud Mike for being communicative and honest about these things and it's a good sign for the community building he can do by talking to the players) and b) I love that Mike at least is really seriously looking at solid design philosophy where the bottom line is always, "what makes the game the most fun" without breaking it. It doesn't seem revolutionary, but at the same time I'm not sure everyone in the history of game design could honestly say that this was at the fore-front of their thinking.

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[info]mearls
2008-07-09 10:53 pm UTC (link)
I think the approach on terrain is one of the big shifts from 3e, and something that people weened on earlier versions of D&D are likely to miss as an issue. I have an entire post on playtesting gestating in my head.

I think the fight still works fine, mainly because it's always interesting to fight a dragon early on in the game's life. In year 1, the fight in the adventure is fine, but by year 2 it'll be a little old.

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[info]graypumpkin
2008-07-09 09:55 pm UTC (link)
Some great suggestions, I haven't run/seen Kobold Hall but you better believe I'll be incorporating those ideas should the PC face a white dragon. One thing that I've been working on, but need to improve, is working in the enviorment into the fights, hard to teach an old dog.
In a related note, I recently converted "In the Belly of the Beast" to 4e. The players had a blast with the RP elements and the fight with Yog Mor was a good one though admittedly a little on the static side(His minions were destroyed by the time he "awoke" so he was basically a solo), but the best fight was the one that broke out afterwards, on the bluffs of Fallcrest, with Tarmalac and Bruno and the remaining Ring of Iron Thugs trying to take down the PC's to keep them from talking. Had I thought about it more I could have made the Yog Mor fight a lot more dynamic too.
BTW converting was a snap, spent a couple of hours before the fight converting the principles, making changes along the way, like this Tarmalac was a warlord, rather than a rogue. Yog Mor was basically a "Chain Devil" converted on the fly, the prep involved in 4e is a godsend to the DM.

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[info]mearls
2008-07-09 10:47 pm UTC (link)
Awesome, glad to hear that people are still playing that adventure. It's funny, because whenever I hear someone complain that there's no roleplay in 4e, I want to point at Belly of the Beast as a roleplay-centric scenario that's much better supported by 4e than 3e.

In some ways, I was thinking of it when we worked on skill challenges.

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[info]allandaros
2008-07-09 11:24 pm UTC (link)
I realize that this was written for D&D in particular, but these are darn good tips for ANY RPG combat involving a solitary opponent. Thank you, sir!

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[info]sim_james
2008-07-10 06:09 am UTC (link)
Agreed. It's given me something to think about before the next session of my Wild Talents campaign.

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[info]osito71
2008-07-10 01:11 pm UTC (link)
Encounter environment is important to any combat, solo or not, in my humble opinion. :)

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[info]zakarntson
2008-07-09 11:54 pm UTC (link)
Yeah! A text with this kind of discussion would absolutely rule. The only non-core non-adventure book I bought for 3.0 was that Monster "design book" you did; it was filled with useful discussion and advice. Those are the kind of books I'd like to see more of. Granted, the 4e DMG has been the best core book I've yet seen to do this.

Also, have you seen the "boss monster" posts in the Wizards monster forum, where skill challenges are worked directly into the monster write-up? It looks like folks are already trying to awesome-ify solo fights.

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[info]osito71
2008-07-10 01:06 pm UTC (link)
Mike,

You have just reinforced my DMing philosophy: "It is not about the monster, it is about the environment."

And by environment, I mean not only the physical terrain (which is crucial in my games), but also the context and stakes of any given encounter in terms of the campaign.

That holds true for all editions.

Edited at 2008-07-10 01:07 pm UTC

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[info]yeloson
2008-07-10 03:34 pm UTC (link)
Well shoot. Here I was prepping to write a big ole' thing on environmental setup and stuff and you done wrote it. I guess I'll just write about the tactical/fun value of chokepoints and leave it at that.

Curse you Mearls! Currrrrse Yooouuuuu!

ETA: Here, a small addition to the terrain thing. Though, I really do hope in the next few years we see some real innovation and growth with terrain use in D&D. It's beem long overdue.

Edited at 2008-07-10 04:00 pm UTC

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[info]shakauvm
2008-07-10 03:44 pm UTC (link)
Heh, the first combat I ran in 4ed was the white dragon encounter in Kobold Hall. In res media -- they sat down, gave them a bit of an intro, and said, "...and that's how you came to be in front of an angry white dragon the size of a horse charging down on you."

Kind of funny, I did have freezing and melting ice squares in that combat, and I did trap a weapon in a block of ice in the back side. It was actually the 5th party member - an intelligent floating sword, since they didn't have a defender in the party and really needed one.

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[info]dragonklaw82
2008-07-11 02:54 pm UTC (link)
Speaking of Dragon and Dungeon submissions, when can we expect the new submission guidelines? I've had things brewing that I've wanted to pitch for a while, but I've been waiting for 4e submissions to the e-zines to open up.

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[info]jdigital
2008-07-11 11:43 pm UTC (link)
This post made quite the stir over at ENWorld. Essentially, they're right in that a creature with hundreds of hit points is going to lead to a lengthy combat where people aren't feeling any feedback that their actions are effecting a change.

I noticed this in third edition when I once made a boss fight of an elder earth elemental. You end up grinding - not in the fun MMO way, more chore-like. In a group of creatures, each dropped enemy serves as a milestone toward victory, and with a solo you don't have that.

You can see this in boss fights on video games, which usually rely on some gimmick. Perhaps there's the challenge of finding a weak spot, reducing the fight from "impossible" to merely "tough". Perhaps there's a trick to fighting the creature, like luring it onto a pit trap and pulling the lever.

In any case there's usually a set of milestones that show you're on the way to victory. Armour plates fall off the creature (Return to Castle Wolfenstein), the creature looks visibly weakened or suddenly uses more desperate tactics (Myth, Metroid Fusion), or the creature mutates into a more powerful form (Metroid Fusion). You can thus have your extra tough creature without the players feeling that progess has been blocked or slowed.

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(Anonymous)
2008-07-17 03:59 pm UTC (link)
I set my party up against the adult black dragon and found that it's cloud of darkness ability helped to keep the fight from getting too static. In that case, it was the dragon that was forcing the PC's to move around simply because it was. If the fighter's doing his job (assuming the party has a fighter, of course) the battle's going to be pretty static no matter how many set pieces there are simply because the dragon's going to get stuck in one spot. In a way, it's a catch-22. The best strategic situation with a dragon is the same one that makes the fight the most boring.

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[info]helium3
2008-07-17 04:00 pm UTC (link)
oh, and this is me. didn't mean to post anonymously.

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[info]brokenmarrow.wordpress.com
2008-10-26 01:37 am UTC (link)
I think like throwing good money after bad, it's kind of throwing good creativity after bad creativity.

If the monster does just stand there and repeat attack, why put in the effort to jazz it up?

Even if it's a natural cause and effect of the game world (say a dragon in a small cave isn't going to do a lot of moving), then you don't need to jazz it up if the players all enjoy experiencing the natural cause and effects of the world. If they aren't into cause and effect, don't put the dragon in a cave to begin with! And if, even with room to move, is just designed to stand still and repeat attack...shesh, why put effort in where the designer couldn't be bothered?

Also keep in mind handling time reduces the fun over time ratio. If the combat would normally take ten minutes, by reducing handling time (like adding up dice, etc) if you reduce it to five minutes, then it feels like the combat is twice as fun! Reduce it to one minute and it'd feel ten times as fun! Stuff like pre calculating what they need on a raw d20 to hit, instead of adding up to hit bonuses and then comparing to AC will reduce this time.

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