Mearls ([info]mearls) wrote,
@ 2005-12-28 20:41:00
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Gaming With the "Enemy"
I tried WoW for a second time thanks to [info]memento_mori. [info]brahman_atman had tried to introduce me to the game a long while back, but it just didn't take. Dave's a great guy, but his sales pitch of, "Here's a city. There are people here. Now ride a train!", fell flat on its face compared to Jared's "Here are some wolves and trolls that your dwarf character can shoot in the face."

I played for about 2 hours, which put my dwarf hunter at level 6. Jared also spent some time explaining character building strategies.

First, I'd like to keep playing the game and will likely do so through the computer lab at work. OTOH, I wouldn't run out and buy a PC just to play it. I don't really like PC games, especially compared to consoles. I have better things to do with my free time than deal with drivers, viruses, and hardware upgrades. If it was available on Xbox, I'd buy it. That's like, the highest comment I can possibly give to a PC game - I'd buy it if it was available on a console.

Second, the game is well designed, as you expect from Blizzard. There weren't any bogus moments were I had to earn the right to enjoy the game. My character started with enough equipment for me to dive in to the action. The monsters were wolves, trolls, and other stuff that felt like a real challenge, not lame crap like bunnies or rats. The quests in particular were well designed. Basically, they step you through the various aspects of the game you have to deal with, while guiding you along a path that takes you from the noob area to the wide world.

The combat system is engaging. The cool down times make paying attention to what's happening, and timing combos, key. There's definitely an element of play skill involved in planning an attack and managing various abilities during a fight.

Obviously, I'm not about to give up D&D to play more WoW. I liked the game, but it's a radically different experience from D&D. Of what I've seen so far, it feels like a slower-paced, thinking man's Halo. I can see how team tactics are important, and the game obviously operates in real time, but it lacks the adrenaline rush of an "I'm hunkered down in a bunker, last guy between the enemy and our flag, praying for reinforcements" moment in Halo. OTOH, there are a ton of lessons that this game has for mainstream RPG design. For that reason alone I'm going to keep playing.

Here's my question: why is it a given that D&D and WoW are two options on a binary switch? Why do we say that RPGs killed wargames? The second question in particular fascinates me. It's a big part of game industry conventional wisdom, and one thing I've learned is that conventional wisdom is anything but wise.

The first question is also interesting. Does WoW really fill the same role as D&D? I hear people say that D&D is all about killing monsters via teamwork, and WoW is the same thing, but I don't think that explains *why* people play D&D. I don't think I've ever heard anyone tell me they play D&D because they like to kill stuff and gather treasure. That's an expression of the game in motion, but it doesn't necessarily explain why people play the game. People didn't play Pac-Man because they liked clearing mazes filled with dots. They didn't play Super Mario Brothers because they liked jumping over turtles. And people don't play D&D or WoW simply because they like killing stuff, gathering treasure, and becoming more powerful. I think there are deeper drivers involved, ones that differ from both games.



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*cough* Apple *cough*
[info]rverghes
2005-12-29 05:36 am UTC (link)
You could always buy a Mac. :)

I'm just joking, really, but WoW has a Mac client (comes with the PC version). It's one of the things I like about the game, willingness by Blizzard to support a wide variety of hardware.

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Re: *cough* Apple *cough*
[info]kadath
2005-12-29 05:09 pm UTC (link)
He has a Mac, unless it died since he moved. :)

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[info]joecrow
2005-12-29 05:52 am UTC (link)
Here's my question: why is it a given that D&D and WoW are two options on a binary switch? Why do we say that RPGs killed wargames?

Because we see videogame writers as bringing home the phat lewt. We're wrong, of course. They're just bring home the slightly less skinny lewt.

Far as I can tell, anyways. Seems like it's only our side that percieves it as a binary thing, which supports my bitter bitter jealousy argument.

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[info]anarchangel23
2005-12-29 06:13 am UTC (link)
Who says that RPGs killed wargaming?

I don't play D&D because it allows me to kill monsters via teamwork. I play so I can have adventures with my friends and play cool characters (by which I mean interesting characters and backstory, not great stats/skills/feat "builds"). Same as with any RPG, it's just a particular flavour of fantasy with an accelerated growth curve.

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[info]bigfootcountry
2005-12-29 07:13 am UTC (link)
The thing about computer/console games and pen & paper games is that those P&P games take a lot more time to get going. With a game like WoW, you can just sit down at your computer, click, and presto! Game on! If you want to go adventuring with friends, you can still complete quests and fight monsters while you wait for them to get their act together.

For P&P games, you have to drive to the game location (unless you host the game), wait for everyone to show up, and then wait for everyone to simmer down and get into "gaming mode." Additionally, once the game is going, it's basically only one person at a time doing something, while everyone else (in theory) waits patiently to do things. With a computer/console game, you get to be doing stuff all the time, at the same time as everyone else. No waiting.

The main strength of a P&P RPG, of course, is the fact that it can change and adapt to you. For computer games, you're limited to what the designers put into the game, more or less. In a P&P game, anything is possible. It's more like you're creating your own story rather than acting out a role in a pre-made story.

Anyway, there's time for both, as I've prooven to myself over the past year, so I don't think that Warcraft or any other MMORPGs are going to kill D&D. Provided D&D wants to stay around, it will. The question shouldn't be "Will people stop playing D&D because of Warcraft" as much as it should be "Will people stopy buying D&D products because of Warcraft?" Even if the entire industry shut down tomorrow, people will still be playing D&D 20 years from now. The fact that there are still original D&D campaigns and games going on out there in the world is proof enough of that.

Eventually, I wouldn't be surprised to see the MMORPG and D&D merge into something greater than either of them. And I think this will happen sooner than anyone expects.

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[info]sppeterson
2005-12-29 07:49 am UTC (link)
Yeah, what Bigfoot said!

To expand on the "change and adapt to you" comment above, one of my frsutrations with computer games is the radical inability to think around a problem -- a game that allows even two solutions to a puzzle is ground-breaking. But, in a TRPG, climbing the outside of the building, blowing a hole in the wall, then jumping inside and shooting all the bad guys is just par for the course.

Secondly, I think MMO's need to do something about making the player feel a little more central to some kind of story. It kills suspension of disbelief to hand some dying guy the only cure in the world to his special disease only to see him flop down a minute later and watch someone else do the same thing.

But I think that the MMORPG and D&D can merge into something greater too -- only I'm expecting that I'll have to wait 10-15 years.

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[info]banana_pants
2005-12-29 07:16 am UTC (link)
I'd love to do some WoW playing with ya, and we could even set up Skype to chat through the game. I've had that work great with a buddy of mine in Japan. :)

WoW has some amazing teamwork potential that you don't even see until the late game. They do a great job of constantly introducing more and more elements and nuances to you over time.

I mainly play Horde on Azjol-Nerub and Alliance on Bloodhoof. If you are up for spreading around the love, make a horde Azjol-Nerub character and we'll be able to walk around and kill stuff together!

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[info]bull22
2005-12-29 07:28 am UTC (link)
Also as a note, wait till you can start doing Battlegrounds. If you like some of the adrenaline rushes you get from a kickass Halo match, some 10 on 10 Capture the Flag in Warsong Gulch, or the 15 on 15 Take and Hold Objective points in Arathi Basin are amazing. And if you can manage to get into ALterac valley at the high end of the game, some 40 on 40 "Live" RTS style action has a very epic feel to it as you fight for control of resources and graveywards, rescue captured heroes and help to upgrade and call in more NPC reinforcements, plus work toward summoning either the giant (And I mean giant) Forest Lord or Ice Lord (depending on which side you're on).

And I'll be honest, I eagerly await the day when they start putting these MMORPGs on the consoles. I'd kill to have this on X-Box 360, with full keyboard and mouse support. FFIX was/is a step in the right direction, but it was kind of a boring baby step :)

Bull

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[info]yeloson
2005-12-29 09:41 am UTC (link)
Does WoW really fill the same role as D&D? I hear people say that D&D is all about killing monsters via teamwork, and WoW is the same thing, but I don't think that explains *why* people play D&D.

Well, maybe. What are folks really playing when they play D&D? Are they actually trying to kill monsters and take their stuff? Or maybe they do a lot of other things and have one monster fight a session, maybe less. Are they even using AoO's?

Thing is- people are often playing 101 different games all under the banner of D&D- which is also why despite being "The World's Most Popular Fantasy Game", D&D players can still have a hard time finding people to play with- people playing the same KIND of D&D as they are.

On the other hand, when you're playing WoW, you know what game you're playing, you know how the rules work, and what you can do. You don't have to worry that half your Feats aren't any good because they don't use AoO's here, or that your combat monster is going to be worthless in a political intrigue.

What WoW is draining off is new gamers- the barrier to entry for a 12 year old kid is a lot easier for WoW than it is for D&D. There's not much complicated rules to learn, and the rules are consistant.

There's also no 20 minutes of fun to 4 hours ratio- which is another concern.

Some things to think about.

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[info]the_never
2005-12-29 12:52 pm UTC (link)
If your'e trying to say that people who aren't "killing monsters and taking their stuff", aren't then playing D&D, your argument is ridiculous. Sometimes there are battles against monsters. Sometimes there is sneaking and negotiating and skill use and other stuff. It's all D&D.

I've played with many groups over the last 5 years on a weekly basis, and personally observed probably over a 100 different players doing what they do. Everyone I've seen uses Attacks of Opportunity except for some online games (play by post, PBEM, that sort of thing). It's a fundamental part of the tactical 'game' of modern D&D.

D&D players as a rule don't have much trouble finding games, at least where I live. Our group -- due to size issues, turned away 4 players over the last two months and referred them on to other groups that took them in.

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(no subject) - [info]zgaidin, 2005-12-29 03:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]the_never, 2005-12-29 04:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]zgaidin, 2005-12-29 04:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]the_never, 2005-12-29 05:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pneumatik, 2005-12-30 03:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]the_never, 2005-12-30 10:54 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]yeloson, 2005-12-29 06:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]itsmrwilson, 2005-12-29 07:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]the_never, 2005-12-29 08:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]yeloson, 2005-12-29 10:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]the_never, 2005-12-30 12:14 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]greyorm, 2005-12-30 12:38 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]the_never, 2005-12-30 12:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]the_never, 2005-12-30 03:33 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]greyorm, 2005-12-30 04:52 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]the_never, 2005-12-30 10:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ricmadeira, 2005-12-30 11:49 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]the_never, 2005-12-30 12:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]andrewe, 2005-12-31 09:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]greyorm, 2005-12-30 12:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]the_never, 2005-12-30 12:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]greyorm, 2005-12-30 02:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]the_never, 2005-12-30 02:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]greyorm, 2005-12-30 05:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]greyorm, 2005-12-30 05:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]the_never, 2005-12-30 05:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]greyorm, 2005-12-30 04:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]the_never, 2005-12-30 05:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]greyorm, 2005-12-31 09:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]the_never, 2005-12-30 03:26 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ricmadeira, 2005-12-30 08:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]the_never, 2005-12-30 10:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]the_b0rg, 2006-01-05 06:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]the_b0rg, 2006-01-05 06:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]the_never, 2006-01-05 07:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]the_b0rg, 2006-01-06 12:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]the_never, 2006-01-06 09:53 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]the_b0rg, 2006-01-09 05:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]the_never, 2006-01-09 05:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]the_b0rg, 2006-01-10 03:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]the_never, 2006-01-10 05:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]the_b0rg, 2006-01-11 03:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]the_b0rg, 2006-01-11 03:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]yeloson, 2006-01-08 01:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]yeloson, 2006-01-08 01:41 am UTC
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(no subject) - [info]the_never, 2006-01-08 02:28 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]the_never, 2006-01-08 02:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]yeloson, 2006-01-08 06:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]the_never, 2006-01-08 09:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]yeloson, 2006-01-08 10:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]the_never, 2006-01-09 09:53 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]yeloson, 2006-01-09 06:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]the_never, 2006-01-09 07:48 pm UTC

[info]allamistako
2005-12-29 11:26 am UTC (link)
I'm not a big WoW-fan, but then, I'm not a big online gaming fan either. If you do need to go for online gaming, I've heard that Gildwars is supposed to be a good option - you pay the basic game, and there is no need to pay a monthly accout or anything. Plus, the graphics that I've seen look a lot better than WoW, and there seems to be more to DO than run around and kill stuff - if I want to do that, I can play Shadowrun...

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[info]namfoodles
2005-12-29 12:11 pm UTC (link)
The thing that makes games like WoW and, to a certain degree, older games like Ultima Online so appealing is that you can just pick it up, install it, and start playing. You don't have to search endlessly for gamer's who think and act like you. You don't have to spend weeks trying to work out a play schedule while sifting through everyone's work and availablity schedules. You just click on that icon, log in and go look for something to do; or have that something planned ahead of time.

Sure, it's not as deep and interesting as a really good gaming session, but it sure as hell beats dealing with the fun of trying to get 3-6 people together for a few hours a week. My experience with the gaming table has never really been all that stellar. When I played, it was tons of fun, but as I usually work some 40-60 hours a week, finding time when others are free is usually a hassle, etc, etc.

It's interesting to see the players of the older MMORPG's react to newer MMORPG's in the same way pen and paper players seemed to react to the idea of 3rd edition or the D20 system. Really the two aren't that far apart, one just seems more paitent than the other.

As for technology and the proper emulation of a real life or at least truly believable setting that constantly changes and makes all feel unique and special, i'm sure that will happen someday. But right now, it's nice that these games are coming about and forcing us to cooperate with each other in some way rather than the endless conflict of head to head gaming.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

`Jump Right In' and play MMOG - [info]yandros, 2005-12-29 03:19 pm UTC

[info]the_never
2005-12-29 12:40 pm UTC (link)
" hear people say that D&D is all about killing monsters via teamwork, and WoW is the same thing, but I don't think that explains *why* people play D&D."

I think you are absolutely right about that.

Personally I think many people actually think of it as "I'm not playing D&D, I'm playing my character, Morgold the Dwarf, and we're saving the town from a giant-spider cult this week" or something. It isn't D&D, and it isn't "killing the monsters" that draws people in and keeps them coming back, it's the fact that people love their characters and and are engaged in the stories and worlds they are creating. The other thing is, D&D allows players to kick a little ass in the process- it's a game that players can actually be good at, and it rewards that kind of mastery.

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[info]the_never
2005-12-29 12:59 pm UTC (link)
I wrote a similar post about this yesterday

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[info]marcochacon
2005-12-29 01:06 pm UTC (link)
I think that a major part of the thrill for WoW (and D&D) is (what a friend termed) "The joy of chracter development." I know that one of the driving forces in D&D, for me--and it wasn't driving enough to make it my primary game--but still--was leveling up.

The people I know who play WoW a lot get a hit of goodness from increasing in level over time and having meaningful options with which to build out their characters.

-Marco

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[info]gwyndolin
2005-12-29 01:38 pm UTC (link)
I find it interesting how many people talk about the advantage of MMORPGs being you don't have to find people who play like you. I find the opposite to be true -- it's almost easier to find people who can be added to our tabletop gaming group than people who are truly compatable in an online sense.

I've never tried WoW, but I did do EQ1 and am currently playing EQ2. I like roleplaying in the game, but it's hard to find others who aren't tossing out l33t speak. Even once you're in a rp guild, there are arguments about what is 'allowed' roleplaying and what is not.

One of the things EQ was prone to and WoW may fix is the combination of evil and good folks in a guild. Sometimes, I think that killed a pleasant social outing faster than anything. Much meanness went on in the name of 'my character is just evil', and without real pvp, there was no way for the good characters to stand up for themselves.

For me, online gaming doesn't do anything near what tabletop does to satisfy my roleplaying needs. On the other hand, it is there 24/7 when I want to explore, watch the pretty graphics, or go beat up monsters for their gold. But I will never stop playing (or buying) tabletop games because of it.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Group play in MMOGs: easier, or harder?
[info]yandros
2005-12-29 03:23 pm UTC (link)
This is why people are talking about WoW in such hushed/scared/excited tones -- low-level grouping in WoW is dead easy, common, and fun. City of Heroes (and now its sister-game, City of Villains) has some of the same things going for it (for my money, CoH/CoV grouping is just better, but the `things to do' are much more interesting in WoW).

Part of the reason that people are worried about WoW so specifically is that UO, EQ, and such put a relatively high barrier to entry in place, while WoW's is low enough to make TRPGs look burdensome by comparison.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Binary Switch
[info]vaxalon
2005-12-29 01:39 pm UTC (link)
Why is it a given that D&D and WoW are two options on a binary switch?

Because you can't do both at the same time. and because the time budgets of your average gamer, as they go from twentysomething to thirtysomething to fortysomething, gets tighter and tighter, because you can play WoW with your buddies without feeling like you're abandoning your family (even if you are) whereas going over to Joe's house for DnD offers no such illusion.

Why is it NOT two options on a binary switch, any more than "paper or plastic"?

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Re: Binary Switch
[info]maliszew
2005-12-29 05:40 pm UTC (link)
I think this is exactly right.

As a house-husband, father of two, and sometime-writer with many friends in similar boats, time is at a premium. WoW has allowed me to game with my friends very regularly (probably more regularly than TRPGs) and still be able to keep up with my various real world responsibilities. If there's an emergency, I'm available to assist my wife; I'm not over at a friend's house in his basement.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

in the fwiw category
[info]evildmguy
2005-12-29 03:00 pm UTC (link)
Here's my question: why is it a given that D&D and WoW are two options on a binary switch? Why do we say that RPGs killed wargames?

I agree with [info]vaxalon -- because you can't do both at the same time. It is a choice between doing one or the other at any particular time. I agree that you can choose to do both in a given week/month or whatever time period but you can't do both at the same time.

As to the second question, um, DND is has wargaming as a big part of the game now, imo. So, I don't think it killed wargames at all. The game is promoting them because of how combat seems to be "miniature tactical combat" now.

This is just my opinion. I could be wrong.

Have a good one! Take care!

edg

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: in the fwiw category
[info]evildmguy
2005-12-29 03:01 pm UTC (link)
Darn lack of editing. I changed my wording so the "is" above should be deleted. *sigh*

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[info]lucien_soulban
2005-12-29 03:26 pm UTC (link)
but I don't think that explains *why* people play D&D.

The answer in that, I think is both one of time and one of control:
1) Time: MMOs offer a *near* experience to a tabletop game, but one built around your schedule. Imagine yourself able to drop your group in at a second's notice to roleplay something when you have the urge or time. That is the benefit of MMOs. No travel time. Immediate gratification.
2) Control: Where RPGs beat MMOs is in offering players greater control over their actions and interactions. NPCs and monsters in video-games respond in specific ways according to their AI, while the GM of a tabletop game supplies the most sophisticated AI to date. Advantage... roleplaying games.

Unfortunately, as society becomes more reliant on being spoon-fed information with wonderful graphics that supplant imagination and instant gratification that caters to the player's schedule (and whims) table-top RPGs will continue to lose out, I'm afraid.

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[info]allans
2005-12-29 09:10 pm UTC (link)
No travel time.

Are you certain that you're playing the same WoW that I did? :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]wickedthought
2005-12-29 04:33 pm UTC (link)
Does WoW really fill the same role as D&D?

The fact that many playerrs respond with "Yes" to that question tells you exactly what kind of gaming experience those players enjoy.

That isn't the answer you were looking for, but it is the answer I've suspected for a long time.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]zgaidin
2005-12-29 04:47 pm UTC (link)
As an avid WoW player, I'll go out on a limb and say, "No." I don't get the same kind of social interaction playing MMOs as I do sitting at the same table with a small group of friends, eating chips out of a large community bowl, drinking soda and playing the game. But I get a different kind of social interaction that's not necessarily any better or worse. I don't get the same kind of play experience where everything is relatively new each time you do it and where each battle has a certain tenseness because death is a very real option and much more a setback than in an MMO. But I get a different play experience that is sometimes better and sometimes worse.

It's not the same role, but it may be just as good while filling the same free time.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]wickedthought, 2005-12-29 05:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]maliszew, 2005-12-29 07:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]wickedthought, 2005-12-30 12:36 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]maliszew, 2005-12-30 04:28 pm UTC

[info]tek2way
2005-12-29 04:54 pm UTC (link)
As a lowly end-user, let me add my 2¢.

I first heard about MMOs when EQ was in its first year. I got excited, thinking, "It's D&D with a computer interface!" The truth, when I got it installed, was not pretty. I went through the walk-through, learned the game, went online, and proceeded to die from rats over and over. I uninstalled it, and decided that I'd wasted my time.

Years later, after we'd been playing D&D/Shadowrun/GURPS every Sunday for about two years, I tried again with one of my fellow gamer friends. It was fun, for the fact that I was able to run around with him in-game. When my friend wasn't online, though, I never played, and I quit after my free month.

When WoW came out, our game's host jumped right in. Of course, he'd played EQ and SW:G. The thing is, I'd come over for the game, and he'd be getting in a little last minute playing before everyone showed up. It looked drastically different than EQ to me. He showed me how there are professions (Mining, Herbalism, Cooking, and First Aid to name a few) and how you have stuff to do (quests, with obvious indicators of an NPC with one).

This game began to intrigue me. I hadn't given up D&D by any means (indeed, I was running a weekly Eberron game at the time), but I started playing in May, on an RP server.

It was fun, but there wasn't really any RP involved, because the RPers would waste their time yelling at the non-RPers. I eventually left that server, and went to my friend's PVP server. PVP opened up a whole new world of RP for me. The two sides are just one step short of open warfare. The game doesn't allow l337 sp33k, because that allowed the factions to get around their built-into-the-game communication barrier. When you see a member of the opposing faction, you have two choices: Do I attempt to kill him, or do I leave him be/run away (depending on their level vs. yours)?

The experience for me is similar in aspects to D&D, but they're not the same. Now, we had sessions where we almost never got started for talking about WoW, and this may be why it's so similar to me: With the exception of *ONE* person in our group of 5-6, *EVERYONE* played WoW on that server. So we could talk about the place like it was a shared-world campaign setting, in a sense.

So, WoW and D&D are different, but they're the same, too. I play D&D for the social interaction, and zany hijinks that occur at some of the more memorable sessions. But then again, that's why I play any tabletop RPG, not just D&D. WoW offers me a similar, but not the same, experience, and all I need is my computer. I usually wind up DMing the D&D games our group plays, so I rarely get to run around and play a character. Like one person mentioned here, there is something fun about "levelling up".

I've had several D&D characters that got abandoned, because our game folded or whatnot, and I don't like just porting a PC from one game to another without a good reason. Yet, all of my WoW characters are there, ready to be played, unless I hated them enough that I deleted them. If I get tired of playing something, I can set it aside, and try something new, without forsaking the first character.

Another thing that you might say impacts my decision to play WoW vs D&D, is the fact that the game is all there is to get. I thought Skull & Bones from Green Ronin was interesting, but it wouldn't fit in my campaign and no one else in my group would run things with it. I loved Iron Heroes, but the idea of no-magic would turn off enough people that I settled for using most of the mechanics in D&D instead. I am enamored with the new World of Darkness game, because of the backstory/information that is provided, in addition to the game mechanics, but my group doesn't want to try anything new (and no, it's not that easy for me, being shy around new people, to just up and find another group).

In conclusion, WoW gives me the benefits of D&D in a vague way, that allows me to "game" whenever I feel like it, but it's different enough that I don't feel like the two are TRULY competing, especially since I've never skipped a real life D&D/RPG session to play more WoW. I know this has rambled on, but I'm trying to give you another perspective on the whole experience (btw, Horde ftw. :)).

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[info]tek2way
2005-12-29 04:57 pm UTC (link)
Oh god.. Sorry. It *DID* ramble! Still, I hope I got my point across. :-P

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[info]kadath
2005-12-29 05:17 pm UTC (link)
D&D is all about killing monsters via teamwork...

...while eating chips with my friends, making stupid in-jokes across the table, and taunting the GM. D&D, and pen-and-paper RPGs in general have a social element that computer games lack. As awesome as the Internet is, you can't throw Cheetos at someone over it.

Also, that flexibility and customization thing everyone else is on about.

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[info]allans
2005-12-29 10:37 pm UTC (link)
I think there are deeper drivers involved, ones that differ from both games.

Dungeons don't reset.
That's the main driver for me in my preference for tabletop RPGs over online gaming. At the player level and when it's at it's best, a tabletop RPG is a hand crafted and tailored experience. The actions that the characters take have lasting consequence and meaning in the overall story.
That is something that a mass market entertainment like an mmorpg can't offer - where once you step out of the evil Overlord's castle you are likely to be beset by half a dozen "Lvl 15 Sorc LFT to take Overlord" messages.

In a way the difference in game play for me echo the old mass-produced versus artisan-crafted arguements. Online games offer a certain level of availability, consistency and due to economies of scale, a better price point than anything that a tabletop game can offer. However, when that tabletop game is done right, it offers a personal and customized experience that you just can't find elsewhere.

My most recent anecdotal experience is with the Exalted game I was in. The gamemaster decided to run the "big" campaign where we the players were going to be the saviors of all Creation. At the time of the campaign's end, we had established ourselves as a major political, defeated several of the major villians, established alliances and generally permanently altered the political and military landscape of the setting... as well as the geography in a couple of places.

But of course, there were the typical "costs" associated with a tabletop game - scheduling conflicts, travel times, settling in, and over reliance on a single person. When the GM had to move back East to take up a great job offer that was, understandably, the end to the campaign.

Our society, however, doesn't seem to be too kind to the high-quality, high cost, markets. I worry that the game publishers are now making buggy whips instead.

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[info]metallian
2005-12-30 02:13 am UTC (link)
"Does WoW really fill the same role as D&D?"

Not for me. I played WoW, but only very rarely. Back when I had time to do either or both (currently doing neither), D&D won out every time. I think I expected more of the following in WoW and didn't get it:

1) Ability to differentiate my character from others of the same race and class.

Customization options exist, but they are limited. There is almost always an optimal choice that makes the most sense. When I heard about the crafting skills, I thought that meant we would all be able to make cool custom equipment, our own special outfits, etc. That's not really the case...everybody makes more or less the same stuff and there is usually an optimal thing to make. Everybody can, with enough money and time, do everything...which is kind of like everybody being able to do nothing.

2) Ability to set your own goals.

I figured that there might be opportunities to make meaningful changes in the game world, build a reputation or social structure, etc. There doesn't seem to be, really. Everything resets when you're done, and while you can start a guild, that's not really the same as, say, establishing a fort or something like that.

3) Social interaction/roleplaying.

Now, maybe the problem is that I'm not on an RP server, but I don't think it's a lot better there, either. A big part of RPGs, for me, is the "amateur theater" aspect of it. Not necessarily funny voices, but mannerisms and motivations and vaguely appropriate dialogue so on. There's really none of that in WoW. I don't know if it's because the game doesn't support it or because the culture doesn't support it, but I suspect it's tied to items #1 and #2, above. It almost feels like there's no point in characterization when you're in a world you can't change doing basically the same stuff as everyone else.


Now, I certainly enjoy looking at the cool graphics and discovering new areas and getting more powerful and all that. I do like it. It's not like WoW is un-fun. It's just that I can get everything but the graphics at the tabletop, plus a whole lot more. Now if someone created a MMORP that offered all of the above, then there might be trouble.

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What you're describing is coming soon.
[info]vaxalon
2005-12-30 05:34 pm UTC (link)
The aspects you cite are already out there, they're just not fully implemented or in the mainstream MMORPG's yet.

Five years, tops.

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Re: What you're describing is coming soon. - [info]metallian, 2005-12-31 01:18 am UTC
Re: What you're describing is coming soon. - (Anonymous), 2005-12-31 10:26 pm UTC

(Anonymous)
2005-12-30 06:41 am UTC (link)
The popular conception may be that D&D (or RPGs in general) "killed" wargaming.
As a hobby, wargaming is still very much alive.
As an industry, wargaming is for all intents and purposes pretty well dead (and then ONLY if you don't count the very much alive Warhammer franchise), but I don't think the blame lies on RPGs.

Rather, it was computers that did it. Because unlike RPGs, a computer coul do pretty much everything a wargame could do by the 1980s, and literally everything by the 1990s, with the sole exception of the face-to-face socializing and the actual feeling of the dice in your hands.
Those of us who still Wargame are those who like those exceptions. Everyone else finds computer wargaming to meet all their needs.

Unfortunately, as soon as the same could be said of MMORPGs, its likely that they will suffer the same fate as the wargame. With games like WoW that day is a little closer, but it is far from being here yet.

RPGPundit

http://www.xanga.com/RPGpundit

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[info]jholloway
2005-12-31 05:28 pm UTC (link)
The "wargaming" that RPGs are alleged to have killed is hex-and-counter wargaming rather than miniatures wargaming which, as you note, is still going moderately strong. Hex-and-counter wargaming, though, ain't what it used to be by a long way.

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[info]pneumatik
2005-12-30 01:37 pm UTC (link)
Here's my question: why is it a given that D&D and WoW are two options on a binary switch? Why do we say that RPGs killed wargames? The second question in particular fascinates me. It's a big part of game industry conventional wisdom, and one thing I've learned is that conventional wisdom is anything but wise.


As to the first question, and perhaps the second, I think at least a noticable part of the reason why it's a binary choice is because gamers tend to obsess over whatever they're doing. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it does mean that there's really only room for one hobby in your life. When I'm not playing DnD I'm often thinking about what sort of character I'd like to run next, what sort of rules combination is overly powerful or just cool, what might happen at the next gaming session, what happened at the last gaming session, that campaign I really want to run but don't have time for, etc. Similarly I suspect that a lot of the people who play WoW are, when they're not playing it, either thinking about it or are reading about it on the internet. That doesn't leave a lot of time to plan your character development for the gaming session you're having next week - which is probably the only big block of free time you'll have this week. I don't know any people who are really into wargames, but I suspect they spend a lot of time thinking about past and future games when they're not actually playing.


I also think that there's the perception that wargames were killed by RPG's will be killed by good MMORPG's because people did/do switch from one hobby to the next when it came out. I suspect that some wargamers wanted to be playing RPG's they just didn't know it. Similarly there are some people who get more of what they're looking for in a good MMORPG than in a TRPG, and had MMORPG's existed years ago they'd never have gotten into TRPG's.

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[info]the_never
2005-12-30 02:57 pm UTC (link)
I really liked your post (especially the second paragraph) because I do the exact same thing in between games. I did it as a GM, and now as a player I do it even more often.

However, I dunno. Maybe I have even more time than the average gamer. When I'm bored or I have a stray hour or so, I turn on City of Villians (until last month it was WoW) and run around trying to fill out some quests. My "real Gaming" time is regularly scheduled and budgeted. As has been pointed out- the ability to play anytime is supposedly an advantage for the MMORPGs, but it's also the ability that lets me do both activities.

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(no subject) - [info]pneumatik, 2005-12-31 04:43 am UTC
D20, open sourcing
[info]yeloson
2005-12-31 09:21 pm UTC (link)
Hi Mike,

I've been thinking a bit more about this whole thing. What really struck me was today I was reading a videogame magazine article on FPS games and fan based mods and level design, and it occurred to me that it served the same purpose as open sourcing- use-feedback-improvement-use, etc.

You pointed out earlier that no one wants to wade through a 1000 wikis, websites, and pdfs of people's home rules to pick out the cream of the crop. Why hasn't WOTC set up either a website or magazine specifically for fan created content- with it edited and selected by folks who know what works and what doesn't? I mean, there's places for submissions to Dungeon and Dragon, for sure, but I'm talking about a central publication that does nothing but fan material (and maybe articles on better design to help improve the submissions, along the lines of stuff that you & Monte put in your Design Diaries on the Malhavoc site). I'm thinking like a regular Unearthed Arcana.

This way, instead of wading through the intardnets looking for random stuff, WOTC would have it sent to them, sift through, publish, the fans would know where to go for quality content (they already do so), and be able to give feedback for the next go?

This would also help cement the sense of fan community, which is what keeps tabletops going. (check out how GW likes to focus on fan paint jobs to give its audience a feeling of being part of the whole affair) And, while RPGA serves as a network of sorts, not everyone wants to play by the RPGA rules- a sibling network focusing on the fan mods would probably be a bit more friendly to the casual gamers, which is necessary to bring in more folks.

Just some thoughts.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: D20, open sourcing
[info]greyorm
2005-12-31 09:48 pm UTC (link)
Monte Cook has done something like this: The Year's Best d20

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: D20, open sourcing - [info]yeloson, 2005-12-31 09:51 pm UTC
Re: D20, open sourcing - [info]greyorm, 2005-12-31 10:12 pm UTC

[info]greyorm
2005-12-31 10:39 pm UTC (link)
In answer to the "why" people play D&D, I'm going to repeat something I said over on Peter's LJ, and expand upon it a little bit:

I'm one of those guys who tried out the MMORPG side of things and found I didn't like them: it doesn't provide me what I get out of tabletop gaming, what I'm going to call "the illusion of centrality." That is, that my character is a unique and (quite possibly, dependent upon genre) important personage in the imagined world (or story).

I don't get that from MMORPGs because the threatened village that needs you to save it from the evil goblin horde is the same threatened village everyone else saved by wiping out the same band of menacing goblins.

Whoopee. Yeah, I'm a real hero and I really accomplished something meaningful in saving that village. (insert sarcasm tag for the sarcastically impaired)

Point is, it doesn't matter whether or not I save the village, because it will just sit there waiting to be saved until I do. Worse, it doesn't matter whether or not I save it because everyone else already has, too. That bugs me no end because it screams "pointless exercise!"

And it is not like I can brag to my friends in-game about it...it would just be bragging to my button-making friends at the button factory that I make buttons.

Yet...I can play pre-written tabletop modules without the same sort of feeling of overwhelming futility and pointlessness, probably because I know everyone around me in the world is not someone who has also undertaken the exact same quest. The illusion of the world's "reality" and "integrity" is maintained.

This is where I think MMO's can learn from tabletop RPGs, and this is where they are very, very different.

For me, personally, I don't even remotely understand the attraction of MMOs and thus could not begin to introduce tabletop RPGs to MMOers in a way they would find interesting and fun; for the same reason I cannot comment on why people like playing MMOs AND tabletop RPGs.

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