Mearls ([info]mearls) wrote,
@ 2005-08-13 20:40:00
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Stross's Law Revisited
So I named my little theory from my last post after Charlie Stross, and how else should come by and comment but the man himself? Not only that, but he disagrees with me. The temerity!

As I mentioned earlier, I owe everyone a more detailed examination of the concept. The general reaction seems to be, "Yes, this is obvious Mearls. Don't overwrite." Charlie points out that two paragraphs is a needless constraint - why limit the complexity that an RPG game element can achieve?

I'm going to try to answer these questions and thoughts in this post. I'm also somewhat sunburned (both arms, face, and... left knee?) from sitting outside all day. I also had a Slush Puppy for the first time in about 24 years. Forgive me if this rambles!

I originally wanted to draw charts to help explain what follows, but I'm not really sure how to do that with this Windows machine I'm stuck with. I tried using Excel, but I didn't see an export function.

The basic premise behind my thinking is that D&D (and many other, but not all, RPGs) remains a viable hobby because it offers DMs a creative outlet. Most DMs use their own campaign settings, write their own adventures, and even write their own game rules. In many ways, publishers are irrelevent to the play experience after a gamer buys a core rulebook. I think this is why RPGs are still a viable hobby despite other, emerging forms of entertainment. The best crafted computer game or MMORPG can't compete with us when it comes to keeping our *DMs* happy. As long as there are DMs who want to run campaigns, D&D will live on.

(As an aside, this line of thinking is why I think the low price of playing D&D is a strength, not a weakness. Many in the industry lament that you can play RPGs for free - you don't have to buy a rulebook if the DM has one. That's a feature, not a bug - those freeloaders are filling seats around gaming tables across the world. Without them, our DMs don't have players to entertain.)

With this in mind, my theory rests on a simple supposition. There is a tipping point beyond which information about a game setting element (monster, prestige class, etc.) causes that setting element to lose value in the eyes of the typical DM.

Picture in your mind a graph that rises sharply at the left end, then drops suddenly at some point. The X axis is the amount of information presented on something. The Y axis is the DM's interest. At that tipping point, the density of information is such that the DM's creativity is trampled or written over by the game element. In order to use it in his campaign setting, he has to change something in it. As we present more and more information, chances are good that he has to replace even more of it. The utility this element offers decreases once we pass the tipping point.

Thus, Stross's Law. If this is true, we're shooting ourselves in the foot once we venture beyond broad strokes and general ideas. Again, go back and look at many classic D&D game elements in their original forms. There's little detail, but a lot of flavor, and one or more strong, vivid concepts that brings the monster to life.

I don't think that this idea applies to all RPGs, but I think it's in play for any game that encourages its DMs/GMs to create their own settings. I wonder, though, how it might interact with settings and adventures.

I also believe that there is a segment of the audience that wants of details. I think that the less someone plays an RPG and the more they collect/read books in the game line, the more likely they are to want details. I don't think this group is more than a small part of the RPG fanbase. However, I think they do tend to participate in online fora (and debate setting/game minutia) far more often than other types of gamers.

EDIT: There are some pseudo-exceptions to this rule. You might use two paragraphs to describe Waterdeep's fundamental character, but it's obviously crazy to think that you could cover all the important locations within Waterdeep in those two paragraphs. But I think the spirit of the thing remains intact - you can quickly reach a point in mapping and describing a D&D city where your work runs counter to what the DM needs. If the DM needs to change something, your work is getting in his way. At that point, you have to wonder if he's better off just making up everything himself.

EDIT 2: Game mechanics are an obvious exception. The two paragraph limit I propose is related to story material. It wouldn't include a monster's stats, or rules for its breath weapon.




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[info]judd_sonofbert
2005-08-14 04:12 am UTC (link)
Is this because what really scares the shit out of people when creating their own material is that beginning, that blank screen at the outset?

So, the published material is a jumping off point and a kind of additional bravery, the screen is no longer blank.

I know I've always been fascinated by the bits of the D&D myth, the Githyanki and Githzarai, Vecna and Kaz, Beholders and Drow. There was always just enough to get a hold of and as you said, ignore the rest.

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[info]matt_snyder
2005-08-14 04:19 am UTC (link)
So, I bought Sharn, City of Towers a while back. It seemed really cool.

Then, I started skimming through it, reading sections here and there.

It was incredibly detailed, and frankly overwhelming. And it was just one city!

End result:

1) I sure think Sharn is a nifty, colorful idea.

2) I will never run a game in Sharn. The book wastes my time.

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[info]maliszew
2005-08-14 02:59 pm UTC (link)
I agree. I think I have a much more exact knowledge of what Sharn is like than I do, say, Waterdeep, as described in City of Splendors, but I think Waterdeep, as described in that book, is far more useful to me as a DM than is Sharn, because it's much less detailed and obsessive. A propos of this, the Eberron game I'm playing in has only lightly touched on Sharn. It's a place to be from, but adventuring there isn't a lot of fun.

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[info]rverghes
2005-08-14 04:50 am UTC (link)
One other thing is that the more detail you provide, the more likely it is a DM is going to find an element that they don't like.

And since one aspect of buying RPG books is to avoid doing extra work, it's often easier to not buy the book than go through and make changes.

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[info]sppeterson
2005-08-14 05:34 am UTC (link)
I'd have to say I'm not so sure about that. For example, I didn't care for the Githyanki, or even the Fiend Folio, at first. Buncha weird ass drawings and Callista Flockhart looking gith...

But the later mythology added around the Gith, and interesting classes like Gith Cenobytes, made them a lot more appealing in 2E and 3E. So much so that I'd reformat my own setting to include an astral space that has Gith strongholds and Mind Flayers slavelords.

I think the real key is just you've got to make your flavor text really cool -- if you make it cool enough I'll find some way to fit it into my game. Unfortunately there are no books you can read, or handy bullet lists of points you can learn in order ot start coming up with cool ideas. Cool is a complete mystery.

That said, the argument that one should keep things short is true in that, quite often the stuff ain't cool, and if you can't be cool at least be brief (and maybe some reader or some other writer will figure out something cool to do with your concept).

In a related note, "Deuce Bigalow: European Gigolo" clocks in at 77 minutes...

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[info]mythusmage
2005-08-14 07:43 am UTC (link)
For an element such as a city you need to see it not only as a single element, but as being made up of many, separate elements that all come together into the city.

Take Waterdeep for example. As a city it can be described in two paragraphs. But then you have Waterdeep's municipal government, law enforcement, neighborhoods and wards, the waterfront, guilds and businesses, sanitation, medical care, religious organization, and on and on. While each is a part of Waterdeep, the basic description of Waterdeep can not adequately cover them.

Take, for example, a single Waterdhavian street. Two paragraphs should suffice to describe the street as a whole. But then comes the matter of those who live on the street and/or have a business there. Who are they? Do they have a family? Do they have a business? What are their relations with others who live on that street? With those who visit? Why do people visit?

It can get detailed. But with judicious paring of information one can keep it down to a low roar.

BTW, when one speaks of 2 paragraphs for basic information, how long should those paragraphs be?

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[info]yeloson
2005-08-14 07:57 am UTC (link)
It really boils down to this:

Is the information presented a tool to save me work, or a tool that makes me work?

Obviously, this question is going to be different for each group, but simply put, some things work best when drawn in broad strokes, and others work best in deep detail. For instance, I was intrigued by Iron Kingdoms from their Witchfire modules, but the Character Guide had my eyes glazing over as it went into intricate detail about how all the various planets align and such. I'm sure some folks are having multiple geek-gasms over the info, but for me, it just turned me off from the setting altogether- it was too much work to try to pull the general from the specific.

I think the best model is to have general broad ideas, and if you want to get crunchy with it- that's what supplements are for.

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[info]mythusmage
2005-08-14 08:23 am UTC (link)
If planetary alignments is too much detail for you maybe published settings aren't your thing.

Too much detail is telling you what has to happen when certain alignments occur. The fact they do occur, and on certain dates, is really nothing more than an opportunity to devise plot hooks and complications.

You need to ask yourself two questions: 1. Can I build on this? 2. How do I build on this? Every now and then certain planets come into alignment. What happens when this happens? Would could happen? Who would be interested in such events? Why? What are their plans? What are their goals?

Too much detail? No, it's very broad. Broad enough to build an adventure in.

DM (as aged Astrologer): This conjuction only occurs once every few thousand years. The last time was just 6 months before the Orgoth first showed up in Western Immoren. As long as the stars are arranged this way the Meredius Ocean is safe to travel, and can be kept safe with blood sacrifices even after the planets move apart. In the year we have before the Orgoth return can we make ready for them?

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[info]lordsmerf
2005-08-14 10:46 am UTC (link)
You have a point, but I'm not sure if I agree. By that logic then just about anything can be a potential adventure hook. I think it really does come down to "Is the information presented a tool to save me work, or a tool that makes me work?"

Here's my take: the planetary alignments is saving you work if it makes you go "Oh, this is perfect for X!" and it makes you work if you read it and go "Ho hum, who cares?". In the one case it's triggering your own creativity, you're riffing out ideas that you wouldn't have otherwise. In the second case you're reading something (and expending time and effort to do so) and you either you move on simply having spent time that didn't gain you anything (or at least didn't gain you enough to be worth said time) or (as you sort of seem to be suggesting) you expend extra effort to find some way to make it relevant to your game.

While I agree that these kinds of things can be made relevant to (and often very cool elements of) a game, that doesn't mean that they will be. Further, if you already have a cool game, why expend effort adding another thread? If everyone is alraedy having a ball playing a game of cool political intrigue, why risk it by tossing an Orgoth invasion into the mix?

That's why I think this whole Stross's Law thing is important. It's not always obvious whether an idea that you put into setting material will grab someone or whether it will just be skipped. In fact, it's going to end up being different for different people. That is, the planetary alignment may be just what DM Bob needs, but is totally useless for DM Jack's purposes. Having some sort of hard limit on setting material should allow you to provide a couple of cool things for DM Bob to riff off of without wasting DM Jack's time...

Thomas

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[info]mythusmage
2005-08-14 02:37 pm UTC (link)
The Orgroth stuff was just an exemplia gratia, no significance beyond that.

By and large I agree with you. But, I have found that often people are more apt to label something as excessive when it deals with a subject they don't much care for. For example, the original poster, who is evidently not a big fan of planetary alignments. If I were to say that the orcs of Dragon Earth (homebrew modern D&D) tended to a homosexual population of about 3% of the total number of orcs, some people would consider that too much detail. Even though I never go into any real detail about orc homosexuals and orc homosexuality on Dragon Earth.

My point is, you need to consider how much is actually said about a subject. I tell you that 5% of all elves on Dragon Earth live apart from other races, I have said nothing about where they live, how they live, why they live apart, or what their relations are with non-elves. If Dragon Earth ever got published most any GM could expand on this information as he sees fit. But, you can expect some readers to complain that the information I do provide goes into too much detail.

You can't please everybody.

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[info]lordsmerf
2005-08-14 03:07 pm UTC (link)
Quite right.

It's one of those context things: if I have absolutely no interest in dealing with homosexual themes in my game (for whatever reason), then your inclusion of a statistic about it is useless to me. On the other hand, if I do want said themes then I may very well find it useful. (We could get into a discussion regarding the usefulness of statistics vs. general description - i.e. "Orc homosexuals are an incredibly small minority." But that's kind off-topic here...)

I think there may be some danger in a two-paragraph hard limit, but it's a very useful rubrik because it requires you to pare down your concepts to the very core point. What's really the key to the thing? And I'd say that getting to that core, that key, may be the most important thing.

Thomas

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[info]sailor_tech
2005-08-14 08:50 am UTC (link)
Interesting discussion, but I"m not sure how I feel about this.

I would like to have supplements that I can drop into my campaign with little tweaking. So a city book is good, but a city book that is so set in a certain campaign is only good if I'm running in that campaign. On a side note, this is where the d20 OGL stuff is a plus.

Cities, dungeons, castle plans, etc that don't use much more than the core rules is nice. If they have all sorts of new feats for classes to make the city work then I'm less interested.

Sort of rambling.

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[info]cavalorn
2005-08-14 10:13 am UTC (link)
I think it's a bit like making a decent white sauce. The rule is always to add less to more.

So long as an element is small enough and, for want of a better word, soluble enough to be absorbed into a DM's campaign, it will probably work. Thus, the Monster Manual, with its selection of generic beasties for all territories, is a must-have. The Monster Manual can't really be described as a setting - it's more of a resource.

At the other end of the scale is something like Dragonlance. It's less effort to tip the game into the setting than it is to tip bits of the setting into the game. What I mean is, the DM is much more likely to run a campaign in the Dragonlance setting than he is to borrow bits and pieces of Dragonlance for a homebrew.

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[info]boymonster
2005-08-14 01:53 pm UTC (link)
It's funny that you mention that. I've heard from a lot of the folks who pick up the Dragonlance d20 books from Sovereign Press that they've looted rules and game elements for their own homebrew campaigns. The way we're writing them now, there's actually a lot more you can pull out and file off serial numbers from (not that there is always much need for that, either) than there perhaps was before.

For instance, Dragonlance has four new base classes: the mystic and noble (from the core DLCS), the mariner (from Age of Mortals sourcebook), and the master (from the War of the Lance sourcebook). These are all very easy to use in other worlds. The mystic's a spontaneous divine spellcaster with one domain; the noble is very similar to the class from Star Was d20; the mariner's kind of like a rogue/ranger/pirate; and the master is something like a PC-level expert class, borrowing somewhat from the d20 modern concept of talent trees and aligning them against four focused groups: craftsman, performer, sage, and professional.

I do get what you're saying though. Many campaign settings have a tenacious descriptive hold over their rules elements. I just happen to think that I've been writing a little more with the generic gamer in mind. :)

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[info]cavalorn
2005-08-14 02:23 pm UTC (link)
Well, I was really thinking of the original Dragonlance, not the more recent rendition. The completeness of the setting meant (at least to me) that abstracting, say, Kender away from Krynn made about as much sense as abstracting Ewoks away from Star Wars. :)

Maybe it's part of the way the OGL license works, but 3.5 really does lend itself to filing off the serial numbers much more than its predecessors. The intellectual property *can only reside* in the flavour/setting elements, so if you want your ideas to propagate, you have to make them generically appealing from a pure mechanics standpoint.

That said, if the ideas you've mentioned weren't somehow *useful*, they wouldn't get picked up and made use of. There are stacks of redundant prestige classes, feats and so forth out there. There are more 'knight' and 'pirate' types than one could ever need.

Which demands the question: what makes a gaming product useful as opposed to merely inventive?

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[info]boymonster
2005-08-14 01:44 pm UTC (link)
I think an excellent example of this in action is the current presentation of prestige classes in WOTC books. Prestige classes used to be fairly straightforward. You'd have some intro text, which usually explained the PrC in a paragraph, then explained which classes or races were ideal or common when qualifying for the PrC in a second paragraph, and concluded with a short paragraph of typical NPC encounters with the PrC. This format was great, and I still use it today when writing my own PrCs for freelance work.

The new format is pages long, includes extensive notes and background and sections on what you'd get with a Knowledge roll and who they are and where they come from and typical things and then a sample stat block for them (which is now a longer format, also)... good grief! If I could ask anything of the WOTC guys it would be this: trim it all up a little, why don't you?

I think in most cases it shows more respect for the creativity of the reader if you can sum up the key elements of the game element without taking several pages to do it. A two-page prestige class or monster is about my usual limit. Four pages plus a stat block is woeful excess.

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[info]jdigital
2005-08-14 03:53 pm UTC (link)
I would prefer to have the prestige class documented separately from whichever organization or phenomenon it is tied to. A cool thing about Eberron's "Everything has a place in Eberron" philosophy is to go through existing prestige classes and imagine what the background to those might be in Eberron. Does the Arcane Archer have ties to the Valenar elves, or is it the Aerenal elves? Where does the Dragon Disciple fit in - among the barbarians of Argonessen, or the servants of the Chamber? Where might the Mystic Theurge, Weaponmaster and so on fit in?

I agree that a good piece of content will tell you enough to make you think, "Where can I fit this into my game?", without baffling you with masses of details that you need to remember. Again speaking of Eberron, one of the things I like is that it is all-new right down to the cosmology, since previous settings had so much background material that was considered canon. Forgotten Realms has an infinity of novels that I daren't contradict, while even the core relies on Planescape's cosmology.

A good monster, prestige class or sourcebook will not tell the DM what he needs to remember, but rather, will ask the questions that give him the answers he needs. He can deduce that the orcs are raiding bandits, or are conquering hordes, or are fighting their own civil wars among themselves, or are threatening the human cities by arriving en masse, as the DM sees fit. As the DM, do not tell me what something does, but rather, show me it and I'll tell you what I think it does. That's one of the things that being a DM is about.

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[info]sailor_tech
2005-08-15 06:13 am UTC (link)
Hmm.

If I'm reading a campaign setting, I'd like to see how existing presige classes fit into that particular setting. For example, give a three paragraph description of the PrC (as boymonster mentioned above); but then another set of two or three paragraphs fitting it specifically into that campaign if needed. So, for pirates, it might say where they roam, what they raid for and such. The second part can be changed for other worlds by the GM.

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[info]gwyndolin
2005-08-14 02:18 pm UTC (link)
I've always enjoyed having more information than I could possibly use. My father had one of the original boxed sets of the City State of the Invinvible Overlord, and I loved it for its complexity. Details. Give me details. I want the setting to be a living, breathing thing in my head. I want to know what that guy in the street over there does when he goes home to dinner.

I don't promise to use any of it. I will modify, delete, add to, and hack everything to make the setting fit into what I want with the campaign, but for me it's easier to change something I already know than to create new stuff wholly out of cloth.

The next campaign I'm running will be in the new Game of Thrones d20 setting. I love that the novels are there to give width and bredth to the setting. I plan for my campaign to go completely differently than the story did in the books, but it's wonderful to have all that data to mine.

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[info]hastur_cultist
2005-08-14 02:54 pm UTC (link)
Overall, I'm more in this camp as well: I'd rather have a bit more detail than I need, because it's easier for me to alter or toss out the bits that I don't like than it is to create material from scratch. When I buy a setting book for D&D, I expect a lot of detail -- not needless detail (and it sounds like my tipping point is higher than Mike's), but plenty of layers of information. If I wanted to fill in all of the blanks, I'd just homebrew!

From this post, Mike, it sounds like you're saying that the two paragraphs that you generate through the application of Stross's Law should be the entire description provided for most setting elements. Is this accurate?

If so, I have to disagree with that approach to Stross's Law (even though you wrote it!) -- I prefer it as a guideline to creating concise, flavorful summaries.

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[info]mythusmage
2005-08-14 02:46 pm UTC (link)
(Just a short note for this thread. I may expand it into a posting at my blog.)

Proposition: 2 paragraphs is too many, all you need to cover the basics is 1.

I'm sitting and reading another blog when I recall what I learned back in high school. Namely, that when writing a news story the first paragraph of the story is where you put the basic facts. You can get into more detail, but the first paragraph is where the basic facts go.

What are the basic facts of Eberron, of Sharn? What are the basic facts of Castle Greyhawk or the Steading of the Hill Giant Chief? If you find yourself explaining some aspect, that's when you're getting into detail and you really should save it for later.

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There is the iceberg theory of writing ...
[info]autopope
2005-08-14 03:06 pm UTC (link)
The iceberg theory of writing (SF or fantasy, that is) is that the author needs to know ten times as much about the setting as the reader does. This insight into the setting then informs the narrative as you tell the story. You don't drop a thousand pages of infodumps on your reader then rush through a quick story in the setting, you expose bits of it to them in passing as they are encounter it.

This is how it should work for a novelist/reader relationship. But the gaming setup isn't novelist(creator) -> reader(user), it's a three-way relationship: game designer (setting creator) -> DM (new role!) -> player (user). The DM partakes of both the creator/user relationship (with the game designer) and the creator/user relationship (with the players).

So here we've got two conflicting requirements for RPG game elements. On the one hand, they mustn't overload the DM (in the role of user) with spurious junk, they musn't get in the way of the experience, the narrative, because the DM needs to soak up an overall feel for the game environment without being battered about the head with tables and charts to memorize. But on the other hand, the game elements have to provide enough supporting context to allow the DM, once they're familiar with the broad picture, to design their own minutely detailed stuff (if they so desire). This latter aspect was a particular weakness of original D&D back in the seventies -- it was a great broad picture but there were huge enough gaps in the canvas that you could design campaigns that looked like parts of entirely different, incompatible, games without two much difficulty.

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Re: There is the iceberg theory of writing ...
[info]cavalorn
2005-08-14 04:50 pm UTC (link)
Could one sum that up by saying that a game element has to be engagingly unfinished?

I'm not sure that it's the quantity of information about an element so much as the nature of that information. For example, I have here a first edition Fiend Folio, and the entry on the Githyanki contains about eleven paragraphs. It raises all manner of interesting questions. By contrast, the eminently forgettable gorilla bear has three paragraphs.

By the sound of it, Sharn is quite extensively detailed, but it seems the creators have said all that can be said about it. It's not unfinished enough. On the opposite end, original D&D was too unfinished - the lack of internal coherence and story meant that the elements tended to clump together in 'dungeons' that were really just conceptualisations of the advancement system, i.e. level one monsters on the first level, level two monsters on level two and so on.

The process of 'finishing' an element by making it one's own and incorporating it into an adventure is something a typical DM enjoys and appreciates. So, if in two paragraphs one has said everything that can be said about an element, it's not going to engage the DM's interest.

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[info]sim_james
2005-08-14 03:08 pm UTC (link)
As an aside, this line of thinking is why I think the low price of playing D&D is a strength, not a weakness. Many in the industry lament that you can play RPGs for free - you don't have to buy a rulebook if the DM has one. That's a feature, not a bug - those freeloaders are filling seats around gaming tables across the world. Without them, our DMs don't have players to entertain.

   I think that this is probably the most interesting thing you’ve said today. A lot of the discussion of Stross’ Law basically comes down to “encourage the creativity of your reader, don’t stifle it; too much of the wrong kind of detail is often stifling.” And that’s something that some designers know how to do and some don’t.

   I think that your aside is more important. “When designing a new game, hook your GMs first, because without them no-one will play the game. Worry about selling to players once you have a GM fanbase.” Call it Mearls’ Law, maybe.   ;)

I also believe that there is a segment of the audience that wants of details. I think that the less someone plays an RPG and the more they collect/read books in the game line, the more likely they are to want details. I don't think this group is more than a small part of the RPG fanbase. However, I think they do tend to participate in online fora (and debate setting/game minutia) far more often than other types of gamers.

   The percentage of an RPG’s audience that primarily collects/reads undoubtedly differs from game to game. There are going to be more collect/readers for the old World of Darkness than D&D 3.5, definitely. And every time I see some heated debate about inconsistencies in Dragonlance “canon” or What Saulot Was Really Up To I have to wonder if this section of the fanbase really adds much to their online communities...

   Not that I have anything against collecting an entire gameline! My Planescape and Wraith: the Oblivion collections are a thing of beauty. But if you’re not running (or at least playing) games with your favourite RPGs, then you’re not making any new fans, and natural attrition may eventually kill the game’s fanbase.
   

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[info]judd_sonofbert
2005-08-14 07:11 pm UTC (link)
I wouldn't say two paragraphs.

I'd say that setting should aim for inspiration and not information. There should be just as many words as are necessary for inspiring the reader.

I realize that this will lead to different words for different people but that isn't the point. The point is that the writer isn't trying to inform, but to inspire.

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[info]eryx_uk
2005-08-14 11:24 pm UTC (link)
I think I'm an oddity in the gaming community because I'd much rather have setting information for a campaign world than rules. Rules are in the rulesbooks, and while a campaign setting needs to include those rules that make it unique, I'd still rather that they told me about the setting, the planes, the astronomy in real world terms than in rules mechanics.

However there is a fine line between too much and too little.

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[info]eyebeams
2005-08-15 02:51 am UTC (link)
I think this misses the whole point of setting detail. Setting detail is intellectual currency for players much more than it is a tool for GMing.

One of the stupidest lingering conventions in gaming is the idea that the GM is the only guy who reads about the game world and that the players are fed it through a funnel. This is certainly true for unpopular settings, but something like the old Vampire or the Forgotten Realms have detail because it encourages the players to take direct ownership of their experience within the game world. Somebody who plays in either of those settings regularly can create detailed backgrounds, location and adventure hooks for an entire party without one iota of GM intervention, and during play they can draw upon their own knowledge instead of whatever gets fed to them in play. In some games, one of the largest points of debate is between what counts as general knowledge of the game world and what counts as truly privileged GM info.

It's easy to believe garbage about setting detail existing for the sake of readers rather than players, but the fact is that setting is an important play tool for games that have a format where you're less likely to be led by the nose from site to site to kick ass and collect fat loot. In fact, it seems to be the only necessary play tool across the medium, because we must remember that outside of out niche, the most popular forms of roleplaying come from fanfic communities that use canon as a basic play contract, with little or no other rules at all.

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[info]mearls
2005-08-15 05:49 pm UTC (link)
I would agree, if I could find any evidence that the books hit enough players to make a whit of difference. The information you're talking about simply doesn't make the rounds to provide a truly shared experience beyond broad brushstrokes.

In a LARP this might make sense, but not in tabletop play. The numbers just don't back it up. If players are doing this, they aren't buying books to do it. They're getting their information from somewhere else.

There's also the issue of whether such attention to detail is good for a game. Didn't you recently recount problems with LARPs that become overrun with the trivia enthusiasts, or am I thinking of someone else?

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[info]boymonster
2005-08-15 10:15 pm UTC (link)
But they don't have to buy the books to read them, especially not when the person who buys the book shares it among his friends. My friends and I loan books out all the time to each other. Sure, many of us also buy our own copies of books if we use them a lot, but not everybody needs to buy them if folks are willing to share the love.

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[info]judd_sonofbert
2005-08-16 12:25 am UTC (link)
What is interesting about LARP enthusiasts that I have seen is that their currency is the bits of the world they have picked up here and there through play.

Their currency is what they have gathered and experienced.

That's kinda neat.

Yes, I have seen LARPer's in particular really pour over setting details.

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[info]armadillo_king
2005-08-15 10:24 pm UTC (link)
I think that the best example of this theory is the Old World of Darkness. Each of the game lines in the WoD began with a single corebook that provided little more than two paragraphs on each of the many setting elements. These games referenced more ideas than they described and were filled with idea threads and prompts for inspiration. Then, as the lines filled out with supplements and splat books, each line became bogged down with more and more elements and descriptors, forcing GMs to decide which books to use and which to ignore and which setting elements to leave out. The weight of the setting eventually reached the point where a total reboot was welcomed.

As for the graph, I would say that it begins with a sharp rise, slows its rate of climb, plateaus, and then begins to descend. Something like:

...............___....................
.........___/......\___................
.....__/.................\___............
.._/...........................\___........
./...................................\___....
/..........................................\___

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[info]dwarf74
2005-08-16 04:38 am UTC (link)
I gave this some thought, and I agree that too much information is a bad thing.

I'm running an Arcana Evolved campaign in the Diamond Throne setting right now, set primarily in and around Erdaenos. The DT setting information is pretty scant, and at first this threw me off. (Erdaenos has less than a quarter of a page detailing it.) However, after digging into it, I decided this was a strength. If I were provided with intricate detail, I'd feel like I wasn't doing my job if I didn't adhere to it.

Because the detail is scant, I'm very able to improvise. I'd far rather innovate than replicate. I find it easier to just come up with something needed on the spot than to rifle through a 60-page city sourcebook looking for details and utilizing characters that aren't mine.

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[info]jdigital
2005-08-17 04:40 pm UTC (link)
Indeed.

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[info]blackdogsdad
2005-08-16 01:39 pm UTC (link)
This is a tug-of-war that's been going on as long as I remember — inspiration versus thoroughness. There are always going to be those GMs who only want enough information to set them running; and then there are those GMs who want every conceivable facet detailed. The later group are mostly those who don't have the time to generate their own material, or simply novice GMs without world-building experience.
Personally, in this age of the Internet, it should be enough for gaming books to provide a simple picture of an element or world. Then, those GMs who demand greater detail can go to an online messageboard or website and mine those for ideas on how to fill in the gaps. Given, there are those gamers who limit their game to only "official" material, but there are a number of designers who have blogs, websites or simply frequent certain messageboards. It then becomes a simple matter of unearthing the desired material, or even going as far as asking questions of that designer...

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[info]unwiseone
2005-09-09 01:23 am UTC (link)
This is exactly why I recently had to take a sabbatical from Exalted, and I'm not even sure if I'll ever go back. I was big into the setting, and mean BIG. It was chock full of elements I love after all -- wuxia, anime tropes and stylings, epic-fantasy, etc -- so I bought just about every book in the line save two or three. I couldn't get enough. Every newly introduced signature character, setting element and legendary locale was just enough to tide me over until my next 'hit'.

Then one day it was just to much. I found I couldn't even think up a good scenario for my players to play through because it didn't include enough elements of the setting. I was drowning in a deluge of minutiae. Finally I decided to go back to running my *own* homebrew settings, and I've been happier and more creative ever since.

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